allegedly with Bo and Ryan | Episode 6
Today on the podcast, Bo and Ryan discuss what celebrities would have made the greatest lawyers…allegedly.
Allegedly… with Bo and Ryan Podcast E6| Transcript
Bo: [00:00:00] You have to be able to speak to every person you meet on their level. And I would posit that Kesha is a master of that.
Ryan: [00:00:10] Welcome to allegedly with Bo and Ryan, the only Entertainment and Law podcast that brings you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Allegedly.
Bo: [00:00:21] I’m Bo Bowen
Ryan: [00:00:21] And I’m Ryan Schmidt.
Bo: [00:00:23] You’re listening to Allegedly with Bo and Ryan. We’re coming to you from our law offices in beautiful historic Savannah, Georgia, where we’ll be chatting about pop culture, hot legal topics in the news, and doing our best to change the way people think about the law and lawyers.
Ryan: [00:00:40] But first, a little about us. Bo is an amazing chef. His famous pickled chocolate chip cookies once made Gordon Ramsey cry tears of pure joy.
Bo: [00:00:50] And Ryan is known all over the world for his incredible bear hugs. But when Ryan does it, he hugs actual bears.
Ryan: [00:01:00] Together, we are Savannah’s consummate renegade legal titans.
Bo: [00:01:03] And the only corporate entertainment lawyers in the free world who have never lost a single case allegedly. Well, Ryan, welcome back. You know, we got pretty serious last time and you gave musicians some really practical and helpful advice on how to protect themselves and maximize their income in the music industry. That was some interesting stuff.
Ryan: [00:01:29] Yeah, it’s it’s fun. It’s important.
Bo: [00:01:30] Well, I thought maybe this time we’d lighten things up a little bit. So I came up with a new challenge for you.
Ryan: [00:01:38] You’re always coming up with these challenges. I love it.
Bo: [00:01:41] So here’s my thought. I want to do something a little different. Now, as you remember, we already talked about if we had a case for with our life on the line, what fictional lawyer would we choose to represent us? Right. So this time is a little bit different. This time I want to know if you could pick one actor, one musician, and one athlete that you believe would make an incredible lawyer, who would you come up with?
Ryan: [00:02:16] Okay, cool.
Bo: [00:02:17] I like it. All right. But I want to make it a little more challenging because, you know, a lot of actors have portrayed lawyers. You know, you got your, “You can’t handle the truth” moments out there from Tom Cruise. You know, and we obviously, we’ve talked about, you know, the guy from Suits and so on. So to make this a little more challenging, especially in the actor category, it can’t be an actor that has ever actually portrayed a lawyer.
Ryan: [00:02:44] Okay. Geez.
Bo: [00:02:45] Okay. All right. So now remember, the idea here is somebody that, if they had not you know, follow their profession of being an actor, musician, or an athlete and had gone to law school instead, we believe they would make an incredible lawyer. You got it? So with that having been said, who do you think? What’s an actor you believe would make an incredible lawyer?
Ryan: [00:03:14] Ok So I have been rewatching Parks and Rec. I know that you and I both like that show quite a bit, and I’m going to have to go with Rashida Jones.
Bo: [00:03:24] Huh. Interesting. That’s Quincy Jones daughter, right?
Ryan: [00:03:27] Absolutely. So reading more about Rashida Jones, she is just brilliant. She is a genius. Not only is she Harvard educated, and she actually at one point wanted to go to law school, and it was that was always the plan. But through the early nineties and going and seeing the OJ Simpson trial, she kind of lost faith in the justice system. But there’s a lot of reasons that I still think that she’d be an incredible attorney. When I was looking up Rashida Jones, I saw that when she was 17 years old in 1993, Tupac Shakur very publicly came after her parents, Quincy Jones and her entire family.
Bo: [00:04:19] And why would he have done that? I mean, who doesn’t love Quincy Jones, right?
Ryan: [00:04:24] Well, you know, Tupac certainly was was known for having some some hot takes on some things. And, you know, this was particularly offensive and egregious. He had these statements that he made that came after Quincy Jones for his relationships with white women. Quincy Jones, of course, is married. Rashida Jones mother is white, and they have a whole bunch of interracial children. And Tupac, you know, in the nicest terms possible, because by far his his actual language was disgusting, but basically, you know, said Quincy Jones needs to stop being with white women and all their children are an abomination. And also, like, he didn’t he had never worked with Quincy Jones. He didn’t know him from Adam, but he just decided to take a shot at him.
Bo: [00:05:19] Wow. I mean, you know, even the fact that Tupac Shakur was cursing, I mean, come on. Right? Let’s do better.
Ryan: [00:05:28] Exactly. So as a 17 year old, Rashida Jones, in defense of her family and in defense of her way of life, wrote this scathing open letter back to Tupac about his comments. And it was actually posted. It was actually published in the magazine, The Source. Wow. And in that letter, she said Tupac’s words were “showed ignorance and a lack of respect for his people and that he needed to do better.” And this is a 17 year old junior in high school, and it just it just blew my mind. But not only was it the words powerful and the and the commitment to justice powerful, but also the outcome. So after that letter, after that response was made public, a relationship actually formed between Tupac and the Jones family to heal those heal those ties. And actually, Tupac ended up dating one of Quincy Jones’ daughters.
Bo: [00:06:38] Seriously?
Ryan: [00:06:39] Yeah.
Bo: [00:06:41] That is amazing.
Ryan: [00:06:42] And, you know, if that isn’t, you know, in of itself starting from such polar opposite places, you know, a just an example of the power of persuasion and commitment to justice that Rashida Jones has, I don’t know what else would be.
Bo: [00:07:00] I mean, yeah, talk about bringing people together, which is, you know, a huge part of being a lawyer. Finding middle ground.
Ryan: [00:07:08] Well, that’s who I would pick. What about you, Bo?
Bo: [00:07:11] Well, you know, I’ve been thinking about it, and I think I’m going to go with Gemma Chan. Now, for those people that don’t might not know her, Gemma chan has been in a ton of movies, TV shows. I think I first saw her on the television show “Humans,” but she’s been in Sherlock. She’s had a major role in “Crazy Rich Asians.” Recently, Sersi in the movie Eternals. And right now she’s playing Chris Pine’s wife in “Don’t Worry, Darling,” which you may have heard of. Now, why do I think she’d be an incredible lawyer? Well, first of all, Gemma Chan has got to be one of the most beautiful women in the world. Now, maybe shallow, OK, but the fact of the matter is that being attractive can definitely give you a leg up when you’re talking about capturing and holding the attention of a jury. I mean, you know, let’s face it, there’s a reason you’re more likely to see George Clooney or Cary Grant as a leading man than, say, Steve Buscemi or 2022 Mickey Rourke. So but obviously, just simply being attractive by itself is not enough. That may get you through the door, but you got to have more than that. You got to have the intelligence to back it up. And that’s what I love most about Gemma Chan. She is one of the most intelligent and educated actors in the world. And in fact, I’m actually cheating a little bit here because even though she never actually practiced law, Gemma actually has a law degree from Oxford University. And that’s a pretty decent school.
Ryan: [00:09:03] Yeah, I’ve heard of it.
Bo: [00:09:04] When you add together a stunning level of attractiveness with extreme charisma and high intelligence, well, that’s what those of us in the legal profession call the full Ryan Schmidt.
Ryan: [00:09:21] Oh, wow.
Bo: [00:09:23] So my pick for an actor who I believe would be a great lawyer is Gemma Chan.
Ryan: [00:09:29] I like it.
Bo: [00:09:30] Really nice. So now let’s get into your realm, musicians. So for those who haven’t listened to us before, Ryan is actually a recording artist himself, was on “The Voice,” and so you know a lot about musicians, and you’ve met a lot of musicians.
Ryan: [00:09:48] Sure. So for me, I always go back to my favorite musical artists and what I strive to do when I was being a singer songwriter full time was to set myself apart in the lyrics and the songwriting and the craft of it all, and the ability to tell a story. And nobody does that better than Bob Dylan.
Bo: [00:10:15] Fair enough. And he may not pass the attractiveness test, though.
Ryan: [00:10:19] Yeah, he wouldn’t. But, you know, maybe he’s got more of that, like appellate practice. Or maybe he’s like, on, like, a motions type firm, you know? But absolutely, absolutely crucial to litigator’s way of life is the ability to weave and tell a compelling story and all you have to do is look at Bob Dylan’s life’s work to know that this is is by far one of the best storytellers of our lifetime. In fact, he’s he’s been hailed the Shakespeare of our generation. He sold tens of millions of albums, has written and recorded over 500 songs, and is really set the standard for what lyric lyrical mastery is.
Bo: [00:11:06] Yeah, I think you’re right. I mean, when you hear people say, “Who’s a songwriter, that’s a storyteller?” Bob Dylan’s definitely a name that immediately jumps to mind.
Ryan: [00:11:15] And it’s not just the public’s mind either. He has transcended even just music and songwriting. He’s in fact, he’s he’s won a special Pulitzer Prize for writing. But even above that, he is the only songwriter to have ever been awarded the Nobel Prize in literature.
Bo: [00:11:37] Whoa. Seriously?
Ryan: [00:11:39] Yeah. In 2016, he was awarded as the Nobel Laureate in literature.
Bo: [00:11:45] That’s incredible.
Ryan: [00:11:46] It was very controversial, you know, at the time, because there was plenty of, like, sour grapes writers like, well, does this mean I can get a Grammy? No, but it’s it’s pretty easy to see that you could take just about any number of Bob Dylan songs and just pull out the lyrics and just read those. And they can stand up pretty damn close against any of the great writers and poets of all time.
Bo: [00:12:16] That’s a good point.
Ryan: [00:12:17] So that’s that’s who I’m going to say for for my musician pick.
Bo: [00:12:21] All right. Fair, fair. Now I’m going to go a little outside the box here for musician. There is a musician who I think well, there’s there’s a lot actually, I think would make great lawyers, but but one in particular who I would choose.
Ryan: [00:12:34] Jay Z.
Bo: [00:12:35] You’re close because I actually really strongly consider Jay-Z.
Ryan: [00:12:40] Yeah, absolutely.
Bo: [00:12:41] Who I’m actually going to go with is Kesha. So now I realize a lot of people listening right now might be thinking, What the hell are you talking about? All the singers in the world, You’re going with Kesha. But. But hear me out. Well, like you said, at first, I was thinking it a little different. I was torn on it. My first instinct actually was to go with Jay Z. I mean, think about it. He’s a wordsmith. He’s extremely intelligent, he’s highly charismatic. And most importantly, he’s already has this track record of being successful in pretty much every endeavor he’s attempted to do. So there’s no reason to think he would not also be very successful as a lawyer, He’s also proved to me that he’s got very good legal instincts. As Exhibit A, I would call your attention to that modern day masterpiece “99 Problems.” If you remember, there’s a moment in that song where he’s pulled over by a cop, of course, for going 55 in a 54.
Ryan: [00:13:53] Oh, I mean, that’s just a master class on search and seizure law.
Bo: [00:13:57] So Jay-Z tells us the story from there: “Well, do you mind if I look around the car a little bit? Well, my glove compartment is locked. So is the trunk in the back, and I know my rights. So you’re going to need a warrant for that. Aren’t you sharp as a tack? You some type of lawyer or something? Well, I ain’t passed the bar, but I know a little bit, enough that you won’t illegally search my shit.” Masterful.
Ryan: [00:14:24] Absolutely.
Bo: [00:14:25] Could not have said it better myself, so.
Ryan: [00:14:28] Just. And think about that, too. Like, how many people have listened to that song? And that’s like, been practical advice that they’ve actually taken and used.
Bo: [00:14:36] That’s very true. So that was my first instinct. Ultimately, as tempted as I was to go with Jay-Z after thinking it through, I ultimately decided on Kesha for three main reasons. All right. Now, first of all, you may be surprised to learn, particularly given her sex-laced and booze-infused lyrics, Kesha is actually considered one of the smartest people on the planet. Seriously. Her IQ has been measured firmly in the genius level. I recently read that she got nearly a perfect score on the SAT, and that she was highly recruited by prestigious universities all over the world. So, I mean, we’re really talking about next level intelligence there. So she definitely has the brains to be an amazing lawyer. Now second, though, one of the most underrated skills as a lawyer is the ability to relate to other people. I mean, whether you’re talking about your clients, that’s obviously important. Certainly when you’re talking about members of a jury who obviously come from all walks of life. You know, you have to be able to speak to every person you meet on their level. And I would posit that Kesha is a master of that. I’ve seen interviews with her where she is clearly highly intelligent, articulate, very well spoken. I’ve also seen interviews with her where she’s straight up sounds like one of the dumbest humans alive. But it’s all about the person who’s interviewing her. She’s like a sports team that plays to the level of its competition. She really can relate no matter who she’s talking to. But that’s not what put her over the top for me. If you want to be a world class lawyer, intelligence is important, but that by itself is not enough. Even empathy and the ability to relate to other people, not enough. The drive to succeed, which she certainly has, that’s not enough. You also ultimately have to possess a killer instinct. You have to be willing to do whatever it takes to absolutely destroy your opponent when necessary. No mercy. And the fact is, not everybody has the heart for that. Sure. Not everybody can do that. But I would argue, Kesha absolutely does have a killer instinct. Not only has she proved that in her own life, but let me give you an example from one of my favorite songs of hers, a song called Praying. This is what she says. “I can make it on my own and I don’t need you. I’ve found a strength I’ve never known. I’ll bring thunder. I’ll bring rain when I’m finished. They won’t even know your name.
Ryan: [00:17:50] I got chills.
Bo: [00:17:50] Wow. That, my friend, is a killer instinct.
Ryan: [00:17:54] No kidding.
Bo: [00:17:55] So that’s why I’m going with Kesha as my musician lawyer.
Ryan: [00:18:01] I love that. Because if somebody here listening knows Kesha, we can. You know, The Bowen Law Group is hiring. Bring her on.
Bo: [00:18:08] Absolutely. So. All right, Well, let’s move on to the final one: athlete. I mean, there’s some very obvious choices here, so I’m really curious. Right? Who are you thinking? What athlete would you choose as a great lawyer if they had chosen a different path?
Ryan: [00:18:30] So what gets me the most excited about the athlete part of this challenge he put together is considering athletes that have competed at the absolute highest level and and just completely dominated. And I can’t think of any arena more indicative of that than the Olympics, right? That is absolutely that is the the pinnacle of athletic performance on a world stage, highest stakes ever. And the lifelong commitment for many of these athletes to reach that point is just it’s hard to match. So because of that, I am going to have to go with the female gymnast who is tied with Simone Biles as the most decorated US female gymnast in Olympic history. Yeah, And that is Shannon Miller of the Magnificent Seven.
Bo: [00:19:31] Wow. Okay. Give me your thought process. Walk me through it here.
Ryan: [00:19:35] Okay, So first first, you got to you got to figure, especially with Olympic gymnasts, This isn’t something that, you know, somebody in their twenties is saying, yeah, maybe I’ll do that after after sitting on the couch eating pizza and watching like, oh, maybe in four years I can be there. No, this is this is a commitment from a very young early age. And it weeds out, you know, naturally weeds out people over the years. And to stick through that, through injuries, through, you know, incredibly difficult trainings, through upsets and still show up year after year, you know, Olympic season after Olympic season is pretty incredible. And Shannon Miller did that for for three different Olympics and ultimately culminating in the the 1997 win and the 1996 Olympic Games, where in Atlanta they just completely dominated. And so I think I think first is the Olympic mindset, right? Not only. Not only does it take that to be a great lawyer, but it also takes that to even commit to going to law school and getting through that process because, you know, that’s that’s no day at the playground either.
Bo: [00:20:59] Right. Well, I mean, as much as I would like to say, going to law school is the equivalent of making the Olympics, maybe not quite as difficult, but certainly it does take I mean, if you could make it to the Olympics, you’re going to make it through law school.
Ryan: [00:21:14] Right. And in case in point, Shannon Miller actually went to law school and graduated.
Bo: [00:21:22] I already played that card, so I’ll allow it.
Ryan: [00:21:26] Yeah. So in 2007, ten years after her her biggest Olympic victory went to and graduated from Boston College School of Law and didn’t immediately take the bar exam, didn’t go into practice, was a mother, was doing a whole bunch of things in the the health space and the athlete advocacy space. And actually in 2011, when she was at a crossroads of whether deciding to pick up and actually practice law, she was diagnosed with a very rare and very aggressive ovarian cancer.
Bo: [00:22:03] Oh, my goodness.
Ryan: [00:22:04] And that whole process was you know, it was it was a softball sized tumor in her ovaries. And it was just it was it was devastating. But she made it through through through the through that process. She healed up and she committed to make her life’s work about being an advocate for women’s health as not only a lawyer, a trained, trained a. A trained, legally trained mind, but also as a lifelong athlete to serve her community as an advocate. And I think both the Olympic drive and the Olympic spirit and the ability to be an advocate for justice and what is right. That’s why I picked Shannon Miller.
Bo: [00:22:48] Awesome. I mean, what an inspiring story. So I can get behind that. Now for my athlete. All right, I’m going to go a little bit out of the box here.
Ryan: [00:22:58] Am I am I going to know who this person is?
Bo: [00:23:01] Probably not. But well, OK, over the years, you and I have had several conversations about whether or not something qualifies as a sport. Fishing, for example. All right. You know, maybe chess or the national spelling bee, tag, cornhole. You know, I mean, for purposes of this question, all right, I’m going to go with a very simple objective definition. All right. If it’s televised on ESPN, I’m calling it a sport.
Ryan: [00:23:38] Yeah that was the first thing that came to my mind. As long as it’s been shown on ESPN, then we’re good.
Bo: [00:23:43] Yeah, exactly. So with that definition in mind, I’m turning to the world of poker. All right? And for the athlete I believe would have made an incredible lawyer, I’m going with poker legend Amarillo Slim. All right, now, Amarillo Slim passed away ten years ago, but he was a four time winner of the World Series of Poker. All right. He’s in the Poker Hall of Fame. All right. But he makes my list because of his ability to figure out a way to always come out on top against some of the most talented people in the world. Now, you remember a few weeks ago when we were talking about our top fictional lawyers of all time? Of course, one of mine was Saul Goodman. Right. And the reason I went with Saul was because no matter what the odds were, Saul was a master at doing whatever was necessary to win. Shady? OK, that’s fair, but definitely effective. All right, well, that’s Amarillo Slim in real life. There’s a great book called “Amarillo Slim in a World Full of Fat People.” You can read all about this guy. All right. His personality, bigger than life. He was a regular guest on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. So he was definitely charismatic, which is, of course, a very important skill to be a successful lawyer, particularly if you’re going to be a litigator. But what I loved most about him is that he never took advantage of everyday people. In fact, he only went after the best. And one of my favorite quotes from him about that is he once said, “I’m no ordinary hustler. You see, I never go looking for a sucker. I look for a champion and make a sucker out of him.”
Ryan: [00:25:42] So good.
Bo: [00:25:44] Well, let me give you a few examples. So these are real things that he did to win bets. So he had a friend who had a thoroughbred racehorse. Very proud of it, always bragging about it. And so Amarillo looked at him and said, You know what? I can beat your horse in a 100 yard dash. The guy, of course, immediately scoffed. It was like would never happen because. All right, $100,000. I can beat your thoroughbred racehorse at 100 yard dash as long as you let me choose the course. So the guy was like, Look, you could pick any course you want. Doesn’t matter. My horse is going to beat you. So they set a date. Walk out and he’s marked off 25 yards down. And he goes, Och, here’s the course, 25 yards down and back, 25 yards down and back. And so what Amarillo knew was yes, of course, in a in a short burst, a racehorse is going to be much faster than him. But once a horse gets up to speed, stopping it, turning it around, getting it to go back at the other direction, that’s a lengthy process. So the horse hadn’t even gone 50 yards by the time he had completed the 100 yard dash and won the bet. So but he did things like that all the time. He said to the world, ping pong champion, table tennis, whatever you want to call it, I’ll beat you. I’ll bet you that I can beat you at ping pong as long as you let me choose the paddles. And the guy was like, ‘I don’t care what paddles you choose. I’m the world champion. I’ll take you on. It doesn’t matter the paddles.’ So he goes: OK, one month from today, we’re going to play 21. 21 points first to 21 points. So what he did was he went home and he got a coke bottle, and he sat there for a month practicing, hitting a ping pong ball with a Coke bottle. Finally got after weeks, got to where he could hit it pretty much every single time, right over the net shows up for the big match hands. The other has the ping pong champion the coke bottle and says OK, here’s your paddle. 21 to nothing, Amarillo Slim. And it wasn’t just like world champion he famous people he challenged Bobby Riggs to a tennis match said once again you could probably guess long as you let me choose the rackets. Showed up with two cast iron skillets which he had practiced with, again, blanked him, beat him badly, did the same thing to Minnesota Fats, the world famous pool champion. I’ll take you on in pool for this huge amount of money. As long as you let me pick the cues. Practiced with a month with a broom, showed up, handed Minnesota Fats a broom and said, OK, here’s your cue again, Destroyed him. So yeah, I have no doubt that if Amarillo Slim became a lawyer, he would walk into any courtroom with his trademark cowboy hat and figure out a way to win every single time.
Ryan: [00:29:07] I mean, kind of like how the Bowen Law Group figures out a way to help our entertainment and corporate clients win every single time.
Bo: [00:29:13] Exactly. Ryan. That’s a good point, which is why, of course, we are the most successful lawyers in the history of American jurisprudence.
Ryan: [00:29:25] Allegedly. That’s our show for today. Thanks for listening to the legal mastery of the highly intelligent and easily most attractive true legal out lawyers in Savannah. And remember, the only lawyers in the free world who have never lost a single case allegedly. To you continue to receive free edge of your seat, legal anecdotes, mind blowing takes on hot topics in a general master class in awesomeness. Please head over to thebowenlawgroup.com/podcast and look for …
Bo: [00:29:49] Dude, I’m pretty sure they figured it out by now. Just hit the damn subscribe button.